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>problem is that by 35 you can't get by on novelty anymore because you've seen some version of everything there is to see

I'm 68 and this is self-limiting B.S.

In the last few years I have seen many things I never saw before, and never imagined.

Ironically, when I was about 30, I was in a similar position and complained to my dad that there was nothing new under the sun, everything is just a rehash of what has come before.

He laughed at me, and threw me out of the house.



I'm 64 and retired last year. I spent 4 decades programming, and everything changes all the time, and I always learned new things. I am still learning new things, and still writing code to support my generative art. Admittedly I was finally burned out of the grind of working as a programmer, but it took a whole lifetime. But to truly approach new things you have to be willing to let go of the old, even programming if necessary, but without forgetting what you learned. A lifetime is a long time; you really don't need to just do one thing the whole time.

A quote from a novel has always been an inspiration since I read it in high school - "An artist must leave a body of work" from The Agony And The Ecstasy, about Michelangelo. If your programming no longer excites you, learn something new in programming, or even learn something that isn't programming and do that. It's not easy, and might cost you money, but wasting your life doing something you no longer care about is not worth it.

Of course some people can deal with a terrible job, and just spend the non-working time doing what they love, and that's OK if you can deal with it. I could never do that; I didn't turn to art until the last few years.


I'm just over 50 and I'm finding it harder to stay in programming.

Most companies want to push me upward into management (which I don't want to do) - and I feel like I'm aging out of eligibility for most development jobs.

How did you manage to stick with it? I still love it.


56 and still technical here.

Learn, learn, learn. Find the new hotness (at least one that has staying power).

For me, kubernetes is the latest 'big hill'. It seems to have legs for years ahead, and plenty of technical details that prevent anyone from completely mastering it.


> Learn, learn, learn. Find the new hotness

58 in a few weeks, and seriously considering going the other way: To jump off the treadmill of new fads and concentrate on / return to basics.

"Big Data!" "Data Lake!" Data Vault!" "Apache Spark!" "Kafka!" "Cloud this!" "Cloud that!" "Cloud the other!""Snowflake!" "R!" "Python!" "Pandas!" "This new ETL tool!" "That new ETL process!" "This other new ETL tool!" "That other new ETL process!"...

Sigh.

SQL and bash ain't going anywhere, and they're all you really need for ETL.

I'm thinking of really learning the old cool in stead.


Yes, that's a valid path, too.

When I was just starting out (circa 1990) a good friend of mine had a pal that was making his living servicing punch card machines.

They were completely unsupported by IBM at the time, this guy had been an IBM tech and saw the opening. He embraced the old tech, knowing there were people still using it and willing to pay for some form of support.

So I don't disagree with that idea, it's definitely workable.


SQL isn't quite comparable today to punchcards in 1990, is it?


Depends on who you would ask.

Anecdata: was asked by a client why the same query was running orders slower on our infrastructure (IaaS on Xeons) than on their test server (a regular desktop with i7). I check the load, IO, yada-yada and I don't see anything what could indicate the slowness. After a bit I check the db size and ... I'm pretty speechless, because it is 77MBs. 77 megabytes and the query runs for tens of seconds. I tell the client to give me the query. They are happily oblige and provide a two FullHD screens of SQL with like... 20? More? 'SELECT *' from the same tables on and on.

After speaking nicely with the client about the origins of this query and checking their dev environment, I learned:

1. this query was autogenerated by Lavarel

2. their dev environment is 100 times smaller than the prod

3. until I forced them to copy prod data to dev they didn't believe the problem was with the query

4. between two programmers and one sysadmin on the client side NOBODY was even close to reasons of slowness.

So... for some people SQL in 2022 is pretty equal to punchcards.


My first dev job about 15 years ago I took over this in-house developed intranet. Some queries took quite long (30 to 60 seconds), and according to "the last guy" there wasn't any way to speed it up. At the time I didn't know anything about SQL (literally never used it before), but I figured there really had to be some way to do this faster. I just read some basic documentation, rewrote a few queries, and now I got the exact same results in 1 to 2 seconds. A few months later after I learned a bit more about SQL and optimized it further (just by adding an index IIRC) and now it was fast enough to appear instantaneous.

I'm still far from an SQL expert, and certainly wasn't 15 years ago, but you can get a lot of win by just spending as little as one or two days learning about SQL. It really surprises me how some people don't.

Then again, for a very long time I thought awk was basically useless to learn, until I did last year after which I kicked myself for not learning it sooner as I had spent a ridiculous amount of time cooking up inferior solutions for ~20 years, and spending just an hour or two learning awk would have been a great ROI *shrug*.

I guess the moral of the story is that you can never be quite sure if something is useful or useless until you actually learn it.


With the rise of ORMS, I'm coming across more and more devs in my work that have no idea how to write performant SQL, and don't ever check to see what gets generated and run "behind the scenes"


Pandas is a pretty fantastic tool for ETL.


Only if you've never used dplyr ;)


Awesome, thank you so much for the suggestion. That is one of the reasons why I am active on here.


I was being a little snarky. Dplyr is phenomenal but it's written in R which many people perceive to be a weird language.


64 and still crafting in C and assembly. Occasionally doing hardware design/specification work. I studiously avoided the management path my forty year career. The constant technology change is what has held my interest. A career in telecom: Metallic access -> DS0/DS1 -> SONET -> 56K/DSL -> MPLS -> ROADM -> OFDMA/LTE -> WiFi/BT/Lora/Zigbee. Never look back. I cannot even imagine the page count of standards documents, requirements, and manufacturers user and programmers guides I have read in the last forty years.

Had to come back and add. I am doing a lot more embedded python utilities in the last three years, but it is all interfacing to C based firmware on raw silicon underneath.

I have found python to be a lot of fun.


spent 4 decades programming, and everything changes all the time

A half-aged kid here. This is the source of my anxiety, that all I’ve done and learned will age, slip through fingers and become forgotten. I wish our craft could stabilize on something, but it just doesn’t.


It does if you specialize in something that barely moves (AS/400, COBOL, others), but the experience of that career is almost the exact opposite of why many people get in to programming (lots of paperwork, consensus-based decisions, lots of waiting around trying to look busy, little new growth or exploration).

However, there is some light at the end of the “everything changes” tunnel: as you learn different frameworks and languages you’re gaining new perspectives on the deeper concepts, and for the most part those deeper concepts don’t change. In OOP the “gang of four” is practically as relevant now as it was then, for example.


Change is the only constant, I guess. This has always been part of anything computer-related. My dad started his career with punch cards, ended doing Java. You keep learning. But you've got to do that to some extent in every career.

If anything, things are stabilizing now more than ever before. Java and Javascript are almost 30 years old, and still as relevant as ever. Computers have been "fast enough" for most purposes and aren't obsolete the moment you've bought them, like they were in the early 1990s. The x86 architecture is surprisingly still with us. And despite all the new languages and frameworks, there's still tons of stuff being done in all of the old ones. They don't get obsolete as fast as they used to.

You can never do everything. Pick what you love, and focus on that.


Technology is rapidly improving, developers like us have this cycle of never ending learning new tech stack to keep up with the times.


> If your programming no longer excites you, learn something new in programming, or even learn something that isn't programming and do that.

This is the key right here. If what you used to do is no longer exciting you, it is time to try something else. This often means getting out of your comfort zone, and there is no guarantee that the new thing you try will excite you. But if that happens, at least you tried. Every discovery of something that doesn't interest you is a step closer to something that does.


[ A quote from a novel has always been an inspiration since I read it in high school - "An artist must leave a body of work" from The Agony And The Ecstasy, about Michelangelo. If your programming no longer excites you, learn something new in programming, or even learn something that isn't programming and do that. It's not easy, and might cost you money, but wasting your life doing something you no longer care about is not worth it.

-What about economics, a management role or something else? my advice: Have the habbit to improve your habbits (including your thinking) the medicine = reading btw

]


You don’t feel the amount of new things you see slows down considerably as you grow older?

It’s not that you can’t find novel things any more if you go looking for them, but most everyday things hold no more (or less) excitement.

I notice this especially much with my 3 year old son, for whom everything is fascinating. He’ll find out that sticking a bowl upside down in the water and turning it face up will make a lot of bubbles and he’s tremendously excited. I’m excited to see him being excited (which is novel’ish), but the fact that bubbles appear is incredibly mundane now.


> You don’t feel the amount of new things you see slows down considerably as you grow older?

At 44 I have the opposite problem. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. When I was younger I had the ego of a young person and thought I was always on the cusp of knowing it all. As I got older I realized I was simply unaware. It's a bit cliché, but I started approaching everything, even things I 'knew' with a beginners mindset.

One of activities that really helped trigger this shift was finding something brand new to me at ~40 that I also became passionate about. In my case it was jiu-jitsu, but it can be anything where you're drinking from the firehose again. That mindset spread through everything else in my life.


54, this is my life.

There is so much out there to know and experience and it makes me sad to realise that there is no way that I'm going to be able to do everything.

I've a history of every couple of years diving deep into an interest. Woodwork was a thing for a few years, then wood turning. Gardening has come and gone a few times.

We spend a lot of time travelling and seeing new areas, slowly in a caravan, we never get to see it all.

Recently I've started running a Dungeons and Dragons game for a couple of my kids and their friends, there can be a lot more depth to that than you may think.

I've got to agree with you that you start to see a lot more things that you are familiar with. This is not really surprising if you are staying in the same environment.

Cycles of initiatives at work seem to come back every 5 or 6 years and they always ignore the same problems... sigh. There is truth in the idea that history repeats and the more things change the more they stay the same.

My suggestion for dealing with the feeling that nothing is new is much the same as everybody. If your world is getting boring and feels like everything is just on repeat, just change your world. Even if that means you are stepping into the unknown or you are taking risks, you are still going to change your experience.


> The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. When I was younger I had the ego of a young person and thought I was always on the cusp of knowing it all. As I got older I realized I was simply unaware.

This rings truer to me than anything else posted here. I feel exactly the same way right now, (in my late thirties) as if I suddenly realize I spent my life going deep rather than broad and that there’s a whole world of opportunities out there to be a beginner again, with the same enthusiasm as a much younger person (but now with resources!). The struggle of trying new things has completely changed my outlook.

My advice: try things you thought looked interesting but never thought you’d be good at.


Same age, similar insights and personal development path (except in my case it's woodworking rather than jiu-jitsu). If I could have one personal "do over", it's wishing that I could have spent my 20s and early 30s a lot more humble. I was really unaware how much I didn't know.


It's easy to see familiar patterns even in "new" things, though: especially those things that typically bind social networks (primarily shared recreational experiences). There are only so many story tropes to fill books and movies with, shared exercise experiences all blend, card games, board games, etc.--you name it, and odds are that the chance one has "seen it before" increases with age.

So while something can be new, as one ages even "new" things have elements that are immediately obviously the same as one's past experiences. The older one is, the more of these elements there are. There's a diminishing return, so to speak, in experiencing new things.


I think that you are describing the coming of Wisdom... Seeing how things in many different domains fit the same patterns. This does not have to be a negative thing. If you see something new that fits a known pattern, then look closer and see how it's different or how it modifies the pattern to fit it's unique state.


Exactly this. Many others are confusing novelty with pursuing specific knowledge or activities.

If you can build a life around mastering Jiu-Jitsu or learning machining techniques, more power to you.


An ego of a person on the cusp of knowing it all, what a perfect description. I spent a lot of time living like this. I'm going to borrow your page on beginners mindset, living that way brings so much new life to each day.


> At 44 I have the opposite problem. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

I'm 47 and in the same place. I have only recently come to grips with the fact that I am a good programmer and I do know what I'm talking about, but there's also so much that I still don't know. I keep learning, but you've got to pick your focus, because you can't possibly learn everything.


I guess I realize that, and then when I consider how much time I spent getting where I am at one topic, it never really seems like it’ll be possible doing it for another.


Just one example: All my life I have been curious about human pre-history and ancient history. Never learned much about it along the way.

Now that I have time, I find an incredible wealth of knowledge and insight about early human history has been developed. I feel like a dim area of my understanding is being illuminated, like exploring a dark attic with a bright flashlight, it is very satisfying, and particularly when pieces fall into place and I have an "aha! so that is what that was all about" moment, it is exciting as well.


You don’t feel the amount of new things you see slows down considerably as you grow older?

Not OP but I don’t feel this way at all.

My oldest son is starting college next year. That alone has been a learning experience! I coach his robotics team, that has been tremendously new experiences.

I’ve gotten three cloud certifications in the past year. I have a huge list of things I want to learn about - assembly language on Linux, FPGAs and about 20 other things.

I could spend 10,000 lifetimes and not scratch the surface of what this world has to offer.


I don't see how this is an adequate counterexample to OP's experience. The novel things you mention have happened to you take are rarer occurrences than a 3 year old experiencing basic physics.

Despite the pleas in responses to continue to explore and experience new things, it seems to me that the experience of being surprised at new things becomes rarer as one ages, with exploration yielding diminishing returns with respect solely to that experience.


I think maybe it’s easier to get stuck in a rut, go on autopilot, rely on what you know and then end up feeling like there’s no novelty in the world any more as you get older and comfortable.

Maybe you can fall so deeply into it that you can’t even tell you’re in a rut any more and just think that that’s how the world is, which is a puzzling perspective to those outside of the rut because the complexity and novelty of the world really is literally everywhere.

Not that endless novelty seeking is the be all end all, but it’s there if you want it.


For me I have found that traveling helps break that "tunnel vision" which I occasionally find myself stuck in. And it's very hard to realize you're stuck in it until you break out of it. Traveling helps me realize that there's an entire world out there where people are not just living, but thriving. That always helps stir up my curiosity to dig deeper into things.


The novel things you mention have happened to you take are rarer occurrences than a 3 year old experiencing basic physics.

I can use the same example though! Seeing each of my children born left an immense imprint on me. Seeing them experience basic physics for the first time was as novel of an experience for me as experiencing it myself many years earlier.

There are infinite novel experiences awaiting you if you want to seek them.


I'd add that it's about detail - if you thin slice reality for efficiency, reality becomes more simplistic. But you can also discover infinitely more detail. walking into a library reveals that there is an infinite amount of things to know, and there are all kinds of differences between two similar glasses of wine etc. Perhaps its more about the spare energy of the individual available for learning and discovery


I'm into my sixth decade, and I will agree with you that it's about detail. I find more and more rabbit holes to go down that are just fascinating. I make ice cream, but how can I make really good ice cream? What are the pros and cons of regular switches vs. leaf switches for the retro arcade controller I want to build? Why does putting a bunch of wood mulch around my fruit trees do so much to improve the soil ecology? The list goes on. I am never bored.

I think many people take the availability of information we have at our fingertips today for granted. It wasn't always this way. Dig into it, learn something, rinse and repeat.


Exactly. The way I think about it is that anything is interesting if studied in enough detail.

A single square inch of lawn could provide material for multiple PhDs.


Indeed. Just studying your last sentence could provide inspiration of finding funny alternative sayings to 'get off my lawn'.


Added as Learc's Lamentation to https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup


> You don’t feel the amount of new things you see slows down considerably as you grow older?

I don't feel that at all.

I've always felt there was a lot to know. I don't think I ever felt the "ego on the cusp of knowing everything" when I was younger, because I knew I hadn't studied most fields and that there was much more I didn't know about. But I did feel like I was getting that way within a few narrow technical fields.

But as I get older the awareness that there's so much still to see, learn and do in just about every area, including those where I'd become something of an expert, just grows and grows, and it is depressing.

As time passes I feel more and more the limited bandwidth of my capabilities, and that nothing I can do begins to scratch the surface of what there is. Some people seem to find a joy in learning. I enjoy it, indeed I can't help it, but I feel so small and my future life feels so short, it gets me down.

Most things I take an interest in, it feels like it will take 300 years to get to grips with them. If anything, I feel an almighty rush to see what tiny part of what there is I can see, be around, and even better, understand and work with, while it's still possible.

So much to see, so little time.


> You don’t feel the amount of new things you see slows down considerably as you grow older?

Only if you stop exploring. When you think there's nothing new left to learn, nothing novel to experience, well, you stop looking. Start looking again.

> I notice this especially much with my 3 year old son, for whom everything is fascinating.

Spending time with kids is the best way there is to rediscover your sense of wonder.


I agree, a curious mind never runs out of interesting things to see or do. How do we help the original poster becoming more curious and motivated?


When you're burned out, it's hard to simply be curious. And burnout is demotivating.




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