North American techno fan for almost 30 years here.

Europe had an _audience_ for techno, yes but also an audience for some of the cheesiest garbage dance music on the planet.

Don't lecture us -- Detroit and Chicago are the heart and soul of techno & house, even if the artists from there weren't always appreciated at home.

Europe has been exporting its garbage trance and progressive crap since the late 80s. Soul driven techno from African-American artists had a way of being exported over to Europe, absorbed by the locals, and shipped back as soulless amphetamine driven crap.

Electronic music in Europe has always been a huge industry, and some amazing music made... but as a % of product produced/consumed.. only a small amount of it was good (which amounted to a lot of excellent records in an absolute ocean of other junk.)

Back in the day there was an amazing amount of quality underground music coming out of Chicago, New York, Detroit / Windsor, and smaller centres in the midwest, too. Great stuff even from here in Toronto. The west coast was an entirely other story, mostly dominated by "funky breaks" and trance and stuff I didn't like.

Also I can't tell from your tone if the YouTube video you posted is made to be made fun of, or enjoyed? Because to me it's clearly the former. The kind of shit that teenage kids at raves back in the 90s would take meth to and grind their teeth and we'd just gag at.

Yes, we had all that crap here back in the mid-90s. Huge raves, mostly crap. EDM is just what the next generation called it, and I guess maybe it had a broader audience.

>Europe had an _audience_ for techno, yes but also an audience for some of the cheesiest garbage dance music on the planet.

That's actually a sign that a genre has taken hold and reached maturity in a location, with subgenres catering for every layer of society.

As a genre ambassador, you know you've won when your sound (even a watered down version of it) has become the sound of pop music chart-toppers. That happened in Europe in the early 90s, in America in the early 2010s.

> Don't lecture us, Detroit and Chicago are the heart and soul of techno, even if the artists from there weren't always appreciated at home.

I don't know, that's a bit like saying that Helsinki is the heart and soul of Linux, and Uppsala that of MySQL, which is technically true but ... this isn't really where it came of age and blossomed.

> Europe has been exporting its garbage trance and progressive crap since the 90s. Soul driven techno from African-American artists had a way of being exported over to Europe, absorbed by the locals, and exported back as soulless amphetamine driven crap.

That's controversial. Techno is often described as the child of African-American soul music on one side, and white European experimental electronic music on the other.

It's trendy to stress the former and downplay the latter, and that's certainly fair enough for house music.

But when it comes to trance, eurodance, etc, I think that owes almost nothing to America or African-American music, and everything to Kraftwerk and Jean-Michel Jarre.

> That happened in Europe in the early 90s, in America in the early 2010s.

Not my recollection, though? "Electronica" was a mainstream record store category and a huge market in the late 90s and early 2000s in North America long before this "EDM" label was applied later.

I think, yes, that it fell out of fashion post 9-11 and so in the 10 year gap the EDM thing happened later. So we're really talking about a generational horizon thing here, where EDM was the re-emergence of the mainstream top-40 "rave" thing 10 years later for the next generation.

But I remember 3 waves of this stuff:

very early 90s, late 80s, crap like C&C music factory, etc. was the mainstreamization of house music. "pump up the volume" KLF "What Time is Love" etc. was chart topping mainstreamization of acid house, hell it got played all the time on the jukebox in my smalltown / rural Canadian high school. I worked an indoor mall amusement park and the early 90s equivalent of today's EDM was on constant rotation. Dance megamixes, etc.

mid-late 90s, "Electronica"; Chemical Brothers, Prodigy, Underworld, etc. were big. And then the tail end of that it just was everywhere.

And then later, this EDM thing.

So 10 year waves, and at no point has it really been foreign to North America. There were huge several thousand person raves all through the late 90s. It's just that in _context_ of hip-hop R&B dominance in North America and its exports, maybe it looks to Europeans as non-existent.

I'm not questioning the experience of North American music lovers and club-goers like yourself, I'm sure you could get your hands on that stuff.

But take a look at the Wikipedia pages for the tracks and artists you mentioned, and see how high they went in the US vs European charts (to be fair, I was surprised that the Prodigy did so well in the US)

My claim is that the degree to which a genre becomes mainstream in a location is a good reflection of this place being "ground zero" for it.

Yeah I'm just saying it was far more mainstream than is intimated. "Charts" have always been a marketing tool, it's questionable to me from the 80s on how much they reflect what people were actually listening to.

The point is that mass consumption of dance music was a huge thing in North America.

I mean it's funny. In the early 90s I went to visit my extended family in Germany. At that point I was already a major techno fan, but the funny thing is that when I went to Europe all my cousins, the music they listened to was mostly American R&B and hip-hop. Watching overdubbed episodes of Family Matters. Huge consumers of a side of North American culture that I did not. So to me the demographic situation is more complicated.

I think many Europeans on this thread might have a biased perception of what music consumption in the 90s in North America looked like based more on North American exports than on what was actually happening here. That and most people here are quite young.

>I think many Europeans on this thread might have a biased perception of what music consumption in the 90s in North America looked like based more on North American exports than on what was actually happening here

Kinda like the American perception on European's techno culture.

Hint: when the clubs released their yearly compilation based on 3 or 4 CD's, you had one disc per genre: Techno, trance, house and progressive/sung. So in the end we listened to all of the EDM offer inbetween depending on the mood.

Also, as I said, dance megamix CD's in Spain could be found as early as late 80's. Ok, more like vinyls, but the concept stays.

renaudg and cmrdporcupine

I don't have much to add to this apart from to say I think you're both right to varying degrees.

But more importantly I'm enjoying this passionate discourse on HN about a genre of music that I care deeply about.

I think it's fair to say that dance music today wouldn't exist without the breadth of innovation that happened on both sides of "the pond" in recent decades - and to not be too European/US centric - elsewhere around the world too.

Agree with this 100%

We got dance megamixes in Spain too, in early 90's.

Brutal get off my lawn rhetoric over music that is intended to unite! Man who thought this thread would devolve like this. Europe obviously has pushed the envelope and produced fantastic music just as the US has, why the scuffle?