I had a very negative view toward toll roads untill I found the Road Guy Rob youtube channel. His video on the Oklahoma toll roads completely changed my perspective.
> We have evidence of LLMs reproducing code from github that was never ever released with a license that would permit their use. We know this is illegal.
What is illegal about it? You are allowed to read and learn from publicly available unlicensed code. If you use that learning to produce a copy of those works, that is enfringement.
Meta clearly enganged in copyright enfringement when they torrented books that they hadn't purchased. That is enfringement already before they started training on the data. That doesn't make the training itself enfringement though.
> Meta clearly enganged in copyright enfringement when they torrented books that they hadn't purchased. That is enfringement already before they started training on the data. That doesn't make the training itself enfringement though.
What kind of bullshit argument is this? Really? Works created using illegally obtained copyrighted material are themselves considered to be infringing as well. It's called derivative infringment. This is both common sense and law. Even if not, you agree that they infringed on copyright of something close to all copyrighted works on the internet and this sounds fine to you? The consequences and fines from that would kill any company if they actually had to face them.
> What kind of bullshit argument is this? Really? Works created using illegally obtained copyrighted material are themselves considered to be infringing as well.
That isn't true.
The copyright to derivative works is owned by the copyright holder of the original work. However using illegaly obtained copies to create a fair use transformative work does not taint your copyright of that work.
> Even if not, you agree that they infringed on copyright of something close to all copyrighted works on the internet and this sounds fine to you?
I agree that they violated copyright when they torrented books and scholarly arguments. I don't think that counts at "close to all copyrighted works on the Internet".
> The consequences and fines from that would kill any company if they actually had to face them.
I don't actually agree that copyright that causes no harm should be met with such steep penalties. I didn't agree when it was being done by the RIAA and even though I don't like facebook, I don't like it here either.
> If I had a photographic memory and I used it to replicate parts of GPLed software verbatim while erasing the license, I could not excuse it in court that I simply "learned from" the examples.
Right, because you would have done more than learning, you would have then gone past learning and used that learning to reproduce the work.
It works exactly the same for a LLM. Training the model on content you have legal access to is fine. Aftwards, somone using that model to produce a replica of that content is engaged in copyright enfringement.
You seem set on conflating the act of learning with the act of reproduction. You are allowed to learn from copyrighted works you have legal access to, you just aren't allowed to duplicate those works.
The problem is that it's not the user of the LLM doing the reproduction, the LLM provider is. The tokens the LLM is spitting out are coming from the LLM provider. It is the provider that is reproducing the code.
If someone hires me to write some code, and I give them GPLed code (without telling them it is GPLed), I'm the one who broke the license, not them.
> The problem is that it's not the user of the LLM doing the reproduction, the LLM provider is.
I don't think this is legally true. The law isn't fully settled here, but things seem to be moving towards the LLM user being the holder of the copyright of any work produced by that user prompting the LLM. It seems like this would also place the enfringement onus on the user, not the provider.
> If someone hires me to write some code, and I give them GPLed code (without telling them it is GPLed), I'm the one who broke the license, not them.
If you produce code using a LLM, you (probably) own the copyright. If that code is already GPL'd, you would be the one engaged in enfringement.
Everything which is able to learn is also alive, and we don't want to start to treat digital device and software as living beings.
If we are saying that the LLM learns things and then made the copy, then the LLM made the crime and should receive the legal punishment and be sent to jail, banning it from society until it is deemed safe to return. It is not like the installed copy is some child spawn from digital DNA and thus the parent continue to roam while the child get sent to jail. If we are to treat it like a living being that learns things, then every copy and every version is part of the same individual and thus the whole individual get sent to jail. No copy is created when installed on a new device.
> "Learning" was used by the person I responded too.
Not in the same sense.
> If you had read my comment with any care you would have realized I used the words "training" and "learning" specifically and carefully.
This is completely belied by "It works exactly the same for a LLM."
> That doesn't count as a "copy" since it isn't human-discernable.
That's not the reason it _might not_ count as a copy (the law is still not settled on this, and all the court cases have lots of caveats in the rulings), but thanks for playing.
> If you don't like being called out for lack of comprehension, then don't needlessly impose a semantic interjection
If you want to not appear mendacious, then don't claim equivalence between human learning and machine training.
> It is pretty clear this is a transformative use and so far the courts have agreed
In weak cases that didn't show exact outputs from the LLM, yes. In any case, "transformative" does not automagically transform into fair use, although it is one considered factor.
> Very mature.
Hilarious, coming from the one who wrote "if it helps your comprehension."
You must be one of those assholes who think it's OK to say mean things if you use the right words.
You both broke the site guidelines badly in this thread. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules? We ban accounts that won't, and I don't want to ban either of you.
> This is completely belied by "It works exactly the same for a LLM."
I specifically used the word "training" in the sentence aftwards. "It" clearly refers to the sentence prior which explains that infringement happens when the copy is created, not when the original is memorized/learned/trained.
> If you want to not appear mendacious, then don't claim equivalence between human learning and machine training.
I never claimed that. I already clarified that with my previous comment. Instead of bothering to read and understand you have continued to call names.
> Hilarious, coming from the one who wrote "if it helps your comprehension."
You seemed confused, you still seem confused. If you think this genuine (and slightly snarky) offer to use terms that sidestep your pointless semantic nitpick is "being an asshole"... then you need to get some more real world experience.
You both broke the site guidelines badly in this thread. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules? We ban accounts that won't, and I don't want to ban either of you.
> Instead of bothering to read and understand you have continued to call names.
> You seemed confused, you still seem confused
> your pointless semantic nitpick
> you need to get some more real world experience
I wouldn't personally call that being polite, but whatever we call it, it's certainly against HN's rules, and that's what matters.
Edit: This may or may not be helpful (probably not!) but I wonder if you might be experiencing the "objects in the mirror are closer than they appear" phenomenon that shows up pretty often on the internet - that is, we tend to underestimate the provocation in our own comments, and overestimate the provocation in others' comments, which in the end produces quite a skew (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...).
I’m not a lawyer, but I did watch every episode of Better Call Saul and I’d point out that a lawyer who generates one complaint likely generates multiple complaints so that 1 complaint/10 law licenses number is misleading about the scope of the issue. Similarly, 2000 disbarments sounds high until you realize that there are roughly 1.3 million lawyers. What’s more, when I was checking to see what reasons for disbarment might be, I found an article (https://law.usnews.com/law-firms/advice/articles/what-does-i...) which cited a number much lower (less than 500) and that pointed out that reasons other than professional misconduct can lead to disbarment including DUI and domestic violence. The following gives some reasons for disbarment:
> … disbarment is the presumptive form of discipline for an attorney who steals clients’ money, Best says.
> Disbarment is more likely when the attorney committed fraud or serious dishonesty, particularly in front of a tribunal or to a client. Similarly, priority may be given to cases where an attorney is convicted of a crime of moral turpitude, Levin says.
> Priorities also change in response to society’s changing values and when there’s a belief that tightening down on types of cases will help the profession as a whole, Best says.
> For example, in Massachusetts, there has been an increased focus on violations relating to the administration of justice, such as when prosecutors engage in racist behavior.
> And while, in the past, an attorney’s drunk driving or domestic violence would probably not have led to sanctions (because they were seen as unrelated to the attorney’s legal work), they now might result in discipline, Best says.
> None of my house, papers, or effects are owned by anyone but myself.
Do you self host your own email? No? Those are "papers" that your email hosting provider can consent to providing law enforcement access to without a warrant.
Do you use search engines? Your search history is in the same boat with the search engine company.
Don't use a VPN? All of your internet traffic is in the same boat with your ISP
You use a VPN? All your internet traffic is in the same boat with the VPN.
The list goes on and on. It is almost certainly true that some company has private information about you that they can turn over without a warrant.
You forgot to respond to anything except the "houses" part of this.
It's obvious what GP and others are saying - that the concept of things like "papers" and "effects" are no longer as concrete as they used to be. What used to be physical letters stored in one's home are now emails stored on any number of servers.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize.
Perhaps if you had examples or decisions to explain what you're talkinh about, you would make your point better?
As is, you are being politely called out as incorrect because you are asserting someone people don't believe and not providing any argument, evidence or justification.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EzPPmiKFf5I